Template talk:Allegheny County, Pennsylvania

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Isn't Monroeville a city, and not a burough? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rwflammang (talk • contribs) 17:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-02-01T17:40:00.000Z","author":"Rwflammang","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rwflammang-2008-02-01T17:40:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

My understanding is that under Pennsylvania law there are essentially three kinds of municipalities within counties (which are themselves also municiplalites): cities, boroughs (including the one incorporated town), and townships. There are several possible divisions within these groups. Counties can be divided into 9 classes based on population, cities can be divided into four classes, and townships can be divided into two classes. On top of this, all municipalities can adopt home rule legislation, which allows them to determine their own governmental structure (and not follow many of the state laws). As of 2002, Allegheny County itself and 18 municipalities within it (including cities, boroughs, and townships) had adopted home rule. They are still a 2nd class county and cities, boroughs and townships under PA law though. See this PDF [1]

My question then is why should we list Home Rule communities separately? Bethel Park is still legally a borough. I think it would be OK to put an asterisk after the names of municipalities that are home rule, but I do not think it makes the nav box clearer to list them primarily as home rule (and not boroughs or twps or cities).

It may be that the law has changed and if so please let me know and provide a ref, but I think the recent changes should be reverted. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-07T17:09:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-07T17:09:00.000Z-Why_should_Home_Rule_be_separate?","replies":["c-Polaron-2008-11-07T17:15:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-07T17:09:00.000Z"]}}-->

The template simply follows how the U.S. Census Bureau classifies municipalities. Now, the Census Bureau doesn't always track with state law and the option you mentioned is indeed workable if the Census Bureau classification is misleading. --Polaron | Talk 17:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-07T17:15:00.000Z","author":"Polaron","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Polaron-2008-11-07T17:15:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-07T17:09:00.000Z","replies":["c-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z-Polaron-2008-11-07T17:15:00.000Z"]}}-->

In the last few weeks, I've seen signs in Beaver Falls and Eastvale, which apparently voted this week on home rule (I've not heard the results). I've known an Eastvale council member for a few years, so I asked him about it; I remember little of what he said, but if I understand right, Eastvale at least will have its governmental structure changed significantly if the vote passed on Tuesday. Doubtless there are three primary types of municipalities, but we had the East Fork road district listed until Polaron found evidence that it had been dissolved; I'd not be at all surprised if this too is a separate but rare type of government. By the way, Allegheny County's template isn't the only one of this format; some of the Philadelphia-area counties have had separate lines for home rule municipalities for a good while: for example, {{Montgomery County, Pennsylvania}} has listed them since September 2007. Nyttend (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","author":"Nyttend","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z-Polaron-2008-11-07T17:15:00.000Z","replies":["c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:06:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:17:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:24:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z"]}}-->

I am basing my comments on the Pennsylvania official ref I gave above (which is from 2002 - need to find a more recent version of this). Since this is a Pennsylvania county, I think it makes more sense to go with official PA sources - which lists the home rule communities but also specifically identifies them as boroughs / twps / cities. If we do go with the Census sources / definition, then I think all of the Home Rule municipalities should be listed as such (and not just two). There are at least 19 home rule municipalities in the county as of 2002, including Allegheny County itself and three of the four cities (Pittsburgh, Clairton and McKeesport). Do we list the county as a home rule muni. in its own navbox? Do we list cities and give only Duquesne (as the other three would be listed as Home Rule)? I still think noting Home Rule municipalities with an asterisk and having a note would be better, but I am willing to go with consensus. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-08T04:06:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:06:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Here is the January 2005 version of the same document cited above. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-08T04:17:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:17:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Here is an official Pennsylvania list of municipalities from 2006 or 2007 that lists Bethel Park as a borough and also notes it is a home rule community. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-08T04:24:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:24:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-07T18:36:00.000Z","replies":["c-Polaron-2008-11-08T05:04:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:24:00.000Z"]}}-->

There are only three places of type "municipality" in the Census Bureau tabulations. This classification appears to be used for incorporated places (non-township sub-county entities) that are not officially cities but have municipal government structure and powers similar to cities. Again, the Census Bureau classifications are sometimes inconsistent with state law and we should be able to adopt these templates to which classification is more familiar to locals. --Polaron | Talk 05:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-08T05:04:00.000Z","author":"Polaron","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Polaron-2008-11-08T05:04:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-08T04:24:00.000Z","replies":["c-Nyttend-2008-11-08T06:00:00.000Z-Polaron-2008-11-08T05:04:00.000Z"]}}-->

It will need a bit of work, but given your proof I don't think we can reasonably continue listing home rule municipalities separately. Better to put forth a lot of effort to be right than to do nothing and be wrong :-) Nyttend (talk) 06:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-08T06:00:00.000Z","author":"Nyttend","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Nyttend-2008-11-08T06:00:00.000Z-Polaron-2008-11-08T05:04:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

(outdent)I fixed all the Potter County maps to reflect the disappearance of East Fork and have been busy lately in real life and here, but I had thought of splitting out the List of Pennsylvania Home Rule Municipalities out (it is now a section of List of towns and boroughs in Pennsylvania), using the 2005 source given above. Are asterisks and a note in the county nav boxes to show Home Rule OK? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-10T04:21:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-10T04:21:00.000Z-Why_should_Home_Rule_be_separate?","replies":["c-Nyttend-2008-11-10T13:54:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-10T04:21:00.000Z"]}}-->

Sounds good. An asterisk might not be good; perhaps a † would be better? Nyttend (talk) 13:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-10T13:54:00.000Z","author":"Nyttend","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nyttend-2008-11-10T13:54:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-10T04:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-10T21:32:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-10T13:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

I like the "dagger" character better, thanks. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-10T21:32:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-11-10T21:32:00.000Z-Nyttend-2008-11-10T13:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Sorry not to have done anything with this so far - would it be OK to add a dagger to Home Rule municipalities and move them back to city / borough / township? Or should I do the list of Home Rule Munis first, then go through and add daggers to the nav boxes? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 06:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-12-13T06:00:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2008-12-13T06:00:00.000Z-Why_should_Home_Rule_be_separate?","replies":["c-Nyttend-2008-12-13T23:51:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-12-13T06:00:00.000Z"]}}-->

Not sure what the practical difference is...I really don't care myself. Nyttend (talk) 23:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-12-13T23:51:00.000Z","author":"Nyttend","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nyttend-2008-12-13T23:51:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2008-12-13T06:00:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I will try to make a separate list of Home Rule municipalities in Pennsylvania and then add a dagger or asterisk or some symbol as a footnote for those municipalities that are home rule in all of the state. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-24T03:57:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2009-06-24T03:57:00.000Z-Why_should_Home_Rule_be_separate?","replies":["c-Ruhrfisch-2009-06-24T04:03:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2009-06-24T03:57:00.000Z"]}}-->

• The 2007 PA Manual lists them here [2]. 2009 PA Manual does not seem to be on the web yet. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-24T04:03:00.000Z","author":"Ruhrfisch","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Ruhrfisch-2009-06-24T04:03:00.000Z-Ruhrfisch-2009-06-24T03:57:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

There was an edit to the template listing that caused it NOT to display any footnotes or unincorporated communities, this was undone. Template works now.Coal town guy (talk) 14:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-08-08T14:02:00.000Z","author":"Coal town guy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Coal_town_guy-2013-08-08T14:02:00.000Z-Template_was_crippled","replies":[]}}-->